Category: The God-Talk Club Series

Note (November 29, 2014): I’m reviving it, and I’m keeping the chronology real. The group has broken up and is getting back together a bit over three years later. (Expect a link to the first revival story here shortly! And here it is, the first revival story. It’s a two parter. Here’s the link to part 1: The God-Talk Club and the Gay Guitarist – I.)

This is some basic information on this series of stories. I want to warn you that this will be almost entirely dialog on religious topics with some wandering into politics. I want to practice writing some dialog and presenting it as well as expressing various viewpoints in a sympathetic way. The first entry in the series, The God-Talk Club is Born simply introduces some characters and gives hints as to their beliefs.

I will introduce at least two more characters in the next couple of stories (I already have them outlined, and will also provide more information as we go.) I will put entries here on the characters, but will only include information on them that has come up in the stories thus far.

Important Note: None of the characters represent my views. In the long run I intend to give them all sympathetic moments in the discussion and have all of them have some bad days. If you think I’ve slanted a story to a particular point of view, I’d love to hear about it. I’m sure I will fail of balance in many stories, but I hope that overall it will look pretty fair.

Mark Morton – Seminary student of uncertain convictions. He’s not even sure he wants to be a minister, but he’s going to work on it. Age, 20s.

Jerry Simonson – Identifies himself as evangelical Presbyterian, and is a Sunday School teacher and elder in his church. He is a conservative evangelical. Middle age to late middle age.

McKenzie “Mac” Strong – non-Christian skeptic. Very little more has been revealed about her yet. Age: 30s.

Mandy Kelly – Homeschooling housewife of moderately liberal persuasion (4 children). [Update] Girl 15, working on 12th grade, Son 12, already on 9th grade material, 10 year old boy in 5th grade and a seven year old in 3rd grade. Age: 40s.

Rev. Justine Reeder – charismatic preacher who is working on a Master of Divinity at “the seminary.”

Bob Norman – high school biology teacher, single.

Ellen – waitress. Despite good intentions on some people’s part, the group still doesn’t know her last name or treat her with respect.

The Seminary – shall remain nameless. It’s a moderately liberal seminary associated with a mainline denomination.

The Roadside Cafe – originally a cafe associated with a service station, which has slowly transformed itself into a gathering place for students, some faculty and folks from the community who eat, talk, and very occasionally work.

  • The God-Talk Club and the She-Bears

    [This is a work of fiction, from my God-Talk Club series. – added 11:42 central time]

    Small talk was dying down and everyone had their drinks.  Mark had a question:

    “I’ve been given an assignment,”1 he said to the group, and I’d like your thoughts.

    “What is it?” asked Mandy.

    “We’re supposed to write a 10 minute homily on 2 Kings 3:23-24.”

    “Ten minutes?  That’s going to cramp your style.  You can’t tell them everything you’ve learned in your seminary classes.”  Mandy was laughing as she said it, and Mark took it in good humor.  He really did like to put his whole seminary training into each homily.

    “Ten minutes,” echoed Jerry.  “You can’t really get to the meat of a scripture in that period of time.

    “I didn’t know you Presbyterians had long sermons.  I thought you generally had about 20 minute homilies,” said Mandy.

    “Not at my church.  It’s more like 30-40 minutes, and sometimes we get more in the pastor’s Sunday School class.”

    “Oh, you learn something new every day,” said Mandy.  “But we should get back to Mark.  What are your questions?”

    “Well,” said Mark and paused.  He felt like he knew what he’d hear from each person and was almost afraid to start.  “It’s such a violent story.  Elisha seems to get offended and so he slaughters a bunch of kids.  Where’s the moral in that?”

    Justine, Mandy, and Jerry started talking at once, then started to apologize to each other.

    Over the confusion, Bob Norman cut in.  “OK, I’ll bite.  What is this story of the she-bears?”

    “You don’t know that one?” exclaimed Mac.  “That’s  a skeptical staple.  A Christian says ‘God is love’ and you say ‘But what about the she bears?’  I’m going to have to revoke your skeptic’s license.”

    Bob was working on getting used to Mac.  He was a science teacher, an atheist, and quite convinced, but he had been raised in a conventionally religious home, one where he didn’t see church all that often.  Until he had gotten together with the God-Talk Club he hadn’t argued religion that much.  He just didn’t believe.

    Mac, on the other hand, seemed to think that the purpose of skeptics was to argue with Christians.  She knew more about Christianity than most Christians.

    “So what is the story?” asked Bob, looking at Mac.

    “Well, this prophet named Elisha was walking along, and some children started taunting him about being bald.  So he cursed them and called some she bears to maul them.  The bears got 42 of them.”

    Jerry cut in, “Well, not precisely.  How about we read the text as it’s written?”

    Jerry pulled out his Bible and read:

    (23) He went from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!”  (24) And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD.  And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys. — 2 Kings 2:23-24 (ESV)

    “OK,” asked Bob, “so why are they telling this guy to go up?  And is this Elisha you’re talking about?”

    “Well Elijah had just been taken up into heaven, so the boys were suggesting that Elisha do the same thing,” said Jerry.

    “But I don’t believe that anyone can go up to heaven,” said Bob.

    “Why don’t we discuss the story based on what the people who wrote it believed?” asked Mandy.  She barely cut off Jerry who had been about to argue the point.  He again thought about how hard it was for him to take Mandy seriously because of the way she behaved, yet she had these flashes of wisdom.

    “Maybe the boys didn’t believe that Elijah had ascended either,” said Mark.  “They might have been suggesting that Elisha was lying.  Elisha was the only witness, after all.”

    “That’s quite possible,” said Mandy.

    “But it doesn’t help us much in understanding the story,” said Jerry.  Whatever their reasons they were taunting God’s prophet.”

    “So Justine,” said Bob, turning to look her right in the eye.  “What would you do if some children in your congregation were taunting you?”

    “Well, it would depend on what they were doing,” she answered.  “If they’re just joking, I’d laugh and go on.  If they’re threatening me, I’m going to deal with it.  Worst case, I might call the police.  I’ve had some teenagers who needed police intervention.  I don’t like it, but it happens.”

    “But you wouldn’t curse them, or, in the absence of readily available she-bears, you wouldn’t release the dogs on them,” said Mac decisively, as though she thought she had just won a point.

    “Precisely,” said Bob.

    “But Justine isn’t a prophet,” said Jerry.

    “So?  She’s a pastor.  Isn’t that close enough?” asked Bob.

    “I hardly think so.  Elisha was the greatest prophet of his time.  It would be more like taunting the president,” said Jerry.

    “But the secret service doesn’t shoot adults who taunt the president, much less children,” said Bob.

    “Supposing a teenager–and these boys could be teenagers–was carrying a handgun and waved it at the president.  Then what would happen?” asked Jerry.

    “It’s quite possible that the secret service might shoot the teenager.  But there’s no indication these children were carrying guns, or swords or spears,” said Bob again.

    “But there’s nothing that says they didn’t either.  They might have been very threatening.”  Now Jerry looked like he was making a point.

    “But wouldn’t that be adding something to the text?” asked Mark.

    “Well, we’re adding to the text whether we assume they’re little children or teenagers, and whether we assume they had no weapons or lots of them.  It doesn’t give us those details,” said Jerry.

    “So shouldn’t we deal with the text as it is?” asked Justine.  “It seems to say that taunting the prophet was enough provocation, and that God responded to Elijah’s curse by sending the she-bears.  I don’t particularly like it, but that’s what it says.”

    “Well, actually, I don’t think so,” said Mandy.  Everyone started looking right at her.  “The text doesn’t tell us whether Elisha’s action was justified.  It just tell us that it happened.”

    “So is it possible that Elisha might not be doing the right thing here?” asked Mark.

    “I think so.  I think Elisha was tired and angry and so he cursed the children.”  Mandy had that “mother concludes and has made the point to the children” look she got from time to time.  The fact that she was sprawled carelessly sideways across an easy chair detracted from the effect.

    “So why would God honor his angry request?” asked Jerry.

    Mandy considered for a moment.  “Because he was God’s prophet.  What would happen if he cursed someone and nothing happened?  God has to go hunting for a new prophet!”

    “I really don’t think that’s an appropriate way to speak about  a prophet.  Surely a prophet wouldn’t do wrong in a situation like this,” said Jerry.

    “Elijah made mistakes.  Moses made mistakes.  David was a man after God’s own heart and he committed adultery and then murdered someone to cover it up.  What makes you think Bible characters always do right?” said Mandy.

    “But in all those cases we have a clear indication that what they did was wrong.  Not here,” replied Jerry.

    “Well, from my point of view that makes God look even worse.  He will kill forty-two children in order to keep his prophet respectable,” said Bob.  Mac nodded.

    “But God can do anything he wants!  We don’t have the right to judge God’s actions,” said Jerry.

    “So when you say, ‘God is love’ is that your considered judgment, or are you just repeating what God told you to say?” asked Mac.

    “I know that God is love,” said Jerry.

    “But how do you know?  Can you know that God is love without looking at God’s actions and deciding, ‘Those are loving actions?’” asked Mac.

    “I think she’s got a point,” said Mandy.  “After all, we testify to God’s love and to the things God has done for us.  Have we not looked at God’s action and said, ‘That is love’?”

    “But we wouldn’t even know what love was if God didn’t tell us!” said Jerry.

    “Well, I agree with Jerry,” said Justine.  “God has the right to do what he wants.  So I think there must be something there that those children or teenagers did to deserve what happened to them.  If God did it, it must be right, and it says right there [she pointed to Jerry’s Bible] that God did it!”

    “I’ve got to agree with Jerry as well.  It seems that you [he looked at Mandy] and Mark want to have the story in your Bible but you don’t want to accept what it really says.”  Bob looked at Jerry.  “Not that I agree with you about anything else!”

    “I would never even think it,” said Jerry dryly.

    “I have to disagree.  You’ve both decided what the story must mean.  There are many other statements about morality in the Bible.  I think that if we are told elsewhere that an action is wrong, we are not forced to conclude that a person who does that in a story is right.  That was complicated,” said Mandy, and grinned.

    “But then you are saying that God did something wrong,” said Jerry, and Bob and Mac both nodded.

    “I’m saying that God worked with people as they were.  You can’t always have ideal actions when you’re not dealing with ideal people.”

    “There I agree with you, Mandy,” said Justine.  “I don’t really have a problem with this story, but God does work with us where we are.”

    “I think I like Mandy’s explanation,” said Mark.  I wonder if I can say it in 10 minutes?  I’m inclined to give all the explanations and let people choose.”

    And with that, the group began to break up.


    1The real-world source of this question is not a professor at my imaginary seminary but David Ker at his Lingamish blog. I already responded in a real-world sense on my Participatory Bible Study blog.

  • The God-Talk Club – Including the Waitress

    [This is a work of fiction, and is part of my God-Talk club series. For more information follow the link.]

    Ellen McDonald set the extra large Coke on the table in front of Mark Morton and then sat down herself.

    “I hope you won’t get fired for sitting down here with us,” said Mark.

    “Oh, I’m not on the clock.”

    “So what about this?” Mark pointed at the Coke.

    “It’s a Coke, just like you like.”

    “Why are you working if you’re not on the clock?”

    “Well, I’m not really working. I’m just getting you your drink.” Ellen paused. “I listen to bits and pieces of your conversations, but I can’t really join in. I’d like to hear more.”

    “You might even say something once in a while,” said Jerry Simonson. The whole group was gathered, though they hadn’t really gotten started on any topic. There was a long pause in the conversation, as though they couldn’t decide what to talk about.

    “If you’re not comfortable with me being here, I’ll go,” said Ellen.

    “Oh, absolutely not,” said Jerry.

    “Well, we have treated her like part of the furniture,” said Justine. “Sorry, Ellen. We know you’re a person, but it’s easy to ignore the waitress.”

    (more…)

  • The God-Talk Club – Voting I

    [This is a work of fiction. Any resemblance of characters, places, or events to reality is strictly coincidental. It is also part of a series. Characters who have been introduced in previous episodes will not be re-introduced. You can find a list of characters from episodes up to this one here.]

    Only four members of the God-Talk Club had gathered this evening. They were Mark Morton, who was taking a break from studying for a test in his systematic theology class, Jerry Simonson, more determined than ever to reach Mark with the gospel, even though Mark was a seminary student, Mandy Kelly, who never missed her prescribed break from home life, and Justine Reeder.

    “How is it that I never see you studying?” Mark asked Justine.

    “Oh, I study! I just don’t do it here.”

    “But I never see you studying on campus either.”

    “You never see me on campus.”

    “I have too seen you. A couple of times. I just never see you studying or in class.”

    “I know,” said Mandy. “She’s so smart she doesn’t have to study!”

    Justine looked embarrassed, but didn’t say anything.

    “If you don’t mind my asking,” said Mark, “What’s your GPA?”

    “I do mind you asking,” Justine replied. “I think that’s rude!”

    “I bet it’s so high you’re afraid we’ll think you’re boasting,” said Mandy.

    Jerry looked embarrassed. One of his problems with this group was that he was very courteous. It was hard for him to get his viewpoints taken seriously in this group without being blunt, and to be honest quite rude. “How about the election? Have any of you decided who to vote for?”

    There was a moment of stunned silence at the obvious change of subject, then Mandy laughed. “Yes, Grandpa! We’ll settle down and be a little less rude,” she said.

    “I didn’t mean that.” Jerry paused. “Well, I suppose I did. But I’d still like an answer, if anyone is willing.”

    “Why don’t you go first?” asked Mark.

    “Very well,” said Jerry. “I’ll be voting for Fred Thompson in our primary.”

    “Do you think he still has a chance?” asked Mark.

    “I don’t know, but I think he best represents my values—smaller government, private education options, and pro-life.”

    There was another long pause. Jerry looked from one face to another. Had he stepped over a line with these folks by asking their political views?

    “OK, I’ll go,” said Justine. “I’m voting for Barack Obama.”

    (more…)

  • The God-Talk Club – Homeschooling

    [This is a work of fiction. Any resemblance of characters, places, or events to reality is strictly coincidental. It is also part of a series. Characters who have been introduced in previous episodes will not be re-introduced. You can find a list of characters from episodes up to this one here.]

    The God-Talk Club was gathering again at the Roadside Cafe, their regular meeting place. Recently, the owner had added a couple of couches and some more comfortable chairs in groups, trying to take advantage of the number of students who chose to study in his cafe, and coincidentally eat large amounts of snacks and drink a great deal of his soft drinks. He had bought an assortment of used furniture, which kept up the general décor of the place—accidental crossed with tornado aftermath.

    Mark arrived earlier than usual, and claimed one of the new, more comfortable seats. He had just gotten settled in, when Ellen showed up with his regular large Coke. Generally they needed no words. This time when she delivered the drink she was leading a man who appeared to be in his late 20s, and who was dressed professionally. Mark immediately thought he was some type of executive, and wondered what he was doing here at the Roadside Cafe. Generally, the clientele ran to blue jeans and t-shirts, not professional dress.

    “Mark, this is Bob. I told him about your group.”

    “It isn’t much of a group. We just get together and argue on Friday nights.”

    “It’s the only group that meets regularly and seems to keep most of the same people,” said Ellen.

    “OK, yes, and I’m being rude.” He turned to Bob, half got up out of his seat, and shook his hand. “Nice to meet you.”

    “You too,” said Bob, though he looked a bit uncomfortable.

    “Just settle in anywhere. There are no rules at the Roadside Cafe.”

    Bob found a seat on another couch. “How many people are there in your group?” he asked.

    “It really isn’t a group. It’s too informal. Usually there’s about half a dozen who show up. They show up when they want and leave when they want, but the discussion goes on. Most people just join by interrupting the discussion. Speaking of interruptions . . .” he waved at Jerry who was approaching.

    “This is Bob,” he said, looking at Jerry and waving in Bob’s general direction.

    Jerry walked over to where Bob was sitting and held out his hand. “I’m Jerry Simonson,” he said.

    “If Jerry had his way, we’d have rules, and maybe a chairman,” said Mark.

    Jerry, in a collared shirt and dark slacks looked a bit out of place as well, sort of a balance between Bob’s office wear and Mark’s torn and faded jeans.

    Jerry chuckled. “And if Mark had his way, none of us would know anyone else’s names.” He paused. “So how has it been going, Mark?”

    “It’s a pretty ordinary day in the middle of the semester. I finally got my grade back on that essay we discussed, and I passed.”

    “What are you studying?” asked Bob.

    “I’m at the seminary, M.Div.”

    “M.Div?”

    “Master of Divinity, preacher.”

    “But he doesn’t really know if he wants to be one,” said Jerry.

    “Maybe I’ll be a lawyer.”

    “And lie about people instead of God?” Bob looked like he thought he’d just scored points.

    (more…)

  • The God-Talk Club – Tornadoes!

    [This is a work of fiction. Any resemblance between the characters and real people or the places and real places is strictly accidental. What’s more, this is practice fiction, wherein I practice writing dialogue, so any resemblance to real fiction is accidental as well. This is the second of the series. I introduced the God-Talk Club here, and provide some additional information on the current characters here. Comments, including criticism, are welcome.]

    Mark settled into his normal seat at the Roadside Cafe a little later than usual. “His” seat was still not taken, but he noticed that none of the others were there. Before he had even thought about ordering, he saw Ellen, who had been here every time he had, bringing his normal large Coke.

    “What would you do if I told you I didn’t want a large Coke,” he asked, smiling.

    Ellen’s face fell for just a moment, then she realized he was joking. She paused for a second as she put the drink down and gave Mark his straw. “I’d probably get fired,” she said.

    It was Mark’s turn to be speechless. “Surely the wouldn’t fire you for a thing like that!”

    “No, not really.” Ellen giggled. “But it was good to see the look on your face.”

    Mark laughed. “OK. Got me!”

    “What do you guys do here anyhow?”

    “We plot the downfall of civilization,” said someone from behind Ellen. It was Mac.

    Mark looked up at her. McKenzie “Mac” Strong was celebrating warmer weather with a halter top. He suspected she mostly wanted to offend Jerry Simonson, who had commented on female modesty during their discussion the previous Friday night. He thought the comment had been directed at Mandy Kelly, a stay-at-home Mom in her 40s with four children, but Mac had taken it to heart. She enjoyed teasing the conservative elder and Sunday School teacher.

    (more…)

  • The God-Talk Club is Born

    Note: This is the start of a new series, without the end of any others. I will expand on this in the series page. Briefly, I want to practice writing dialog, try various ways of presenting it, and also try presenting different views on various theological topics in a sympathetic way. Basically I’m practicing here, so read at your own risk. Of course, that’s not much different from anything else on this blog!

    Also, all characters, places, events, and churches in this story are fictional. It is a work of fiction.

    * * * * *

    Mark wasn’t too sure why he pulled into the roadside cafe. He rarely ate out. As a seminary student on a partial scholarship but without church support he had to be careful with his money. But tonight he needed to get working on a three page paper, and he couldn’t think how he was going to do it.

    It was Saturday night, the paper was due Monday morning. He felt silly as he thought about that. He was a veteran of countless all nighters in which he had produced 10, 15, or 20 pages in a night with no problem, complete with footnotes, formatted according to the professor’s requirements. Yet he had this feeling of dread.

    “You will write three pages on what it means to you personally to be a Christian. No references, no quotations, not even Bible verses. Just three pages from you.”

    There was a short time of silence in the class. For many of them, half or more of a paper could be made up of summing up other people’s views and providing references for them.

    “But Dr. Youngman,” said one, “References to the great teachers of the past are important! I can’t imagine talking about Christianity without referencing some of the great thinkers in Christian history.”

    “Well, you’re going to learn to imagine it. Just three pages.”

    “Exactly?” asked another student.

    “Make it between 2.9 and 3.1 pages. Edit it until you get it to the right length.”

    “What if I’m not a Christian,” asked another student.

    “Good question,” said the professor. “One assumes that most students at a seminary are Christians, but one may be wrong. If you are not a Christian, then write about what it means to you to say someone else is a Christian.”

    “And if we’re not sure, not committed?”

    “Write about why you’re not sure then, 3 pages, all your words.”

    “I don’t think I can express myself in three pages. You’ve given us a broad subject.”

    “Narrow it down.”

    “But how? What is the most important thing for me to talk about?”

    “That’s what you should be asking yourself.”

    “What if I can’t think of three full pages?”

    “Consider the impact of a zero for this assignment on your grade, and feel the motivation flowing over you.”

    (more…)