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  • Our Pastor is Lazy

    Our Pastor is Lazy

    “You know why I wanted to talk to you today?” said Jim. His intonation indicated a question, but Emily Wall, Rev. Emily Wall, knew she was expected to know.

    “Yes, sir,” she said.

    Jim Evans, district superintendent looked across at the young lady on the other side of his desk. She had no right to look so calm and poised, even comfortable, under the circumstances. Truth be told, he felt a little intimidated by her. That PhD in New Testament from a prestigious university along with her intelligence and self-possession just seemed out of place in someone so young.

    “You can call me Jim,” he said. He’d said that many times before, but she was always a little formal with her superiors in the church organization.

    “Yes, Jim, I do understand.”

    Jim wondered why he felt that there was hostility in the atmosphere of the room. Emily seemed calm and was not challenging his authority in any way, yet he felt challenged. “Your church is going to ask that you not be reappointed, but they’ve asked me to talk to you first, before they make this official. This is entirely informal.”

    Jim waited for Emily to say something, but she simply sat there. Why couldn’t she take her cue? It was time for her to ask what she needed to do, how she could be reverse the decision of the SPR committee.

    “Well,” he said after a few moments, “your evaluation by the members of your congregation is not good. The members say that you’re arrogant, pushy, and, worst of all, lazy.” Jim thought he sensed a little bit of a reaction on the last word, but he wasn’t sure. She still looked peaceful. Again, she didn’t react.

    “Do you have any response to those comments?”

    “I’m not sure. I don’t believe I’ve been any of those things. I’ve been given a number of complaints, but I’d rather hear more specifics. Why do they think I’m arrogant?”

    This is a work of fiction. All persons, places, churches, and events are products of my imagination.
    Copyright © 2011, Henry E. Neufeld

    “Well, they mention here your emphasis on your doctoral degree. ‘Throwing it in our faces,’ is one comment.”

    “But I haven’t made anything of my doctorate. Other than my resume, where it’s kind of required, I don’t believe I’ve mentioned it at all.”

    “But it’s on the church sign.”

    “Yes, but it was put there without my permission, and I’ve asked to have it removed. In fact, I was promised it would be, but it just has never happened. It’s possible that I got a bit pushy about getting it removed.”

    Jim grinned at her reference to the second complaint. He wasn’t surprised. He’d never heard her say anything about her degree either. It was there. She’d done it. She was, in fact, brilliant. But you’d never know about it unless you read the actual record. “OK, I see that.”

    “Actually,” Emily continued, volunteering something for the first time, “I asked that they remove my name from the sign entirely. I don’t see any need for my name on the sign. What does that accomplish? And the way it is now just looks pretentious: ‘Rev. Dr. Emily Wall, PhD, Senior Pastor?’ That’s … I don’t have a word for it. It makes me shudder every time I see it. I’m the only pastor, so I suppose I’m ‘senior’ but Reverend Doctor?” She’d showed an emotion other than calm for the first time in the conversation.

    “They’re proud of their pastor,” said Jim.

    “Yet they want to get rid of her.”

    “Well, not precisely. They want to make an arrangement to work with you. But before we look at that, let’s look a bit more at why they say you’re pushy. It’s not just about the sign. They say you have asked every mission committee meeting what they’re going to do to be missionaries before the next meeting.”

    “Yes, I ask that.”

    “Every meeting?”

    “Yes.”

    “But why approach it that way?”

    “Because they aren’t doing anything to be missionaries between meetings. The mission committee meets to distribute the mission budget money to various causes. Then they talk about how they can raise more money. Sometimes they come up with ideas, but they never implement them. But more importantly, they don’t actually do anything. They want to give away a little money, but they don’t want to get involved.”

    “Well, perhaps that’s their role. Not everyone can go.”

    “I think everyone can do something. I think everyone should do something. There are dozens of projects that could be undertaken within a couple of miles of the church.”

    “But couldn’t you come up with a more gentle and tactful way of bringing it up?”

    “I tried tact. My predecessor tried tact. So did his. I wanted to get their attention.”

    “You did, but not in a good way.”

    “Why do you say it’s not a good way?”

    “Because they’re going to ask not to have you appointed again. You can’t do any good at all if you’re gone.”

    “Perhaps I’ll do some good somewhere else.”

    “I don’t think I like that dismissive attitude.”

    “I didn’t mean to be dismissive. It’s important to me to try to get the members of the church to be disciples, and I believe that means being missionaries, whether it’s down the block or around the world. If doing so offends them, I’ll have to live with that. I don’t want to come up on judgment day and have Jesus ask me whether I ever told them they were called to be missionaries.”

    “I see. I do think you could find a better way to do it. But let’s go on to the next issue. They think you’re lazy. Do you know why they think that?”

    “Yes, that one I do know. I only preached at two services in the last two months.”

    “That’s what the lay leader told me, but I wasn’t sure whether I should believe it. Why didn’t you preach those Sundays? Were you sick?”

    “No, I wasn’t sick, and I was right there in the congregation. I had lay speakers preach on those Sunday mornings.”

    “Lay speakers.” Jim paused. “I know you’ve really pushed lay speaking in your church, but if I had known that was happening earlier, I would have put a stop to it. You’re expected to be in the pulpit regularly on Sunday morning.”

    “I think that’s wrong.”

    “Wrong? It’s our standard practice.”

    “The standard practice is wrong.” He was amazed that it didn’t sound arrogant. The conviction behind the sentence seemed to be beyond arrogance–absolute conviction. Then she continued. “When I arrived at that church there was only one lay speaker, and he had never spoken at anything. I arranged to have him preach for the first time. His training was not really that good, and I spent hours helping him with his sermon. He did very well. Now we have half a dozen lay speakers. That first lay speaker is now working full time at another church.”

    “Where? I didn’t know that!”

    “It’s a small non-denominational church, but it has doubled in membership since he started preaching there. I think they’re going to ordain him.”

    “So it’s not a Methodist church then. You know we didn’t lay hands on you so you could send members to other churches. Your job is to build the church to which you’re assigned.”

    “My job? Perhaps. But my call is to make disciples. My call is to equip the church for ministry. That man was ready to go out and serve. He just needed the confidence and a push. He needed someone to recognize what God had gifted him and called him to do.”

    “But what about those other lay speakers. Do you have to have them preaching all that often? Perhaps you could have a lay revival every year and give them the chance to learn.”

    “I don’t think that would be enough. To learn to preach the gospel you need to preach the gospel. Where better to learn than in your home church?”

    “But what about the ministry to your own members. I got a separate letter from one of your church members. He brought a business associate to visit the church, and a lay speaker preached. He had hoped to have the man hear one of your sermons. Don’t you think the impression you make on visitors is important?”

    “Yes, I think it’s important. But the impression I want to give is not of my intelligence or my speaking ability, but of my commitment to Christ.”

    “Of course we want them to see your commitment to Christ. We want you and the church to be committed to Christ. But people don’t necessarily look at the things we want them to see. The church member who wrote the letter hoped his friend, a prominent businessman, would join the church. But he wasn’t interested in hearing lay speakers.”

    “Again, I believe my job is to equip the church, the whole church for ministry. To do that I need ministry for them to do. For those called to preach, I need to give them the opportunity.”

    “But you’re talking about working yourself out of a job. If the pastor isn’t in the pulpit, the people won’t think she is needed.”

    “I’d love not to be needed in that sense, but I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon. I’ve spent more time with each of those lay speakers before they preached than I would spend preparing my own sermon.”

    “But the one thing the people really like about you is your preaching. Yet that’s precisely what you won’t give them. What do you expect them to do?”

    “I expect them to get into ministry themselves. In evaluating myself, I would not rate my preaching as all that effective. I entertain people. I’m good at fashioning a speech that they like, but I’m not that good at getting people moving.”

    “Well, you do have your fans. I know the district coordinator for lay speakers thinks you’re one of the greatest. He wants to make sure you’re reappointed somewhere in the district so he can use you at training events.”

    “I appreciate that.”

    “Unfortunately, you don’t have many fans at the church.”

    “So why didn’t they just recommend I not be reappointed?”

    “I think they’re rather proud to have a 26 year old pastor who has a PhD from a prestigious university. That’s probably why they put so much emphasis on the sign.”

    “But it’s the wrong reason for them to want to keep a pastor.”

    “You may have to work with whatever reason they have.”

    Again, there was an awkward pause as Emily didn’t offer any further thoughts.

    “What they’ve proposed is a covenant for next year.”

    “I believe I’ve seen this.”

    “Well, there are several major points. First, they want you to preach 48 out of the 52 Sundays during the coming year.  I believe this is quite reasonable. I’ve known pastors to commit to 50.”

    Again Emily added nothing.

    “They want you to commit to personally doing all the hospital visitation. They want additional church office hours.”

    “But they don’t make use of the hours I am present.”

    “Nonetheless they want more hours. What are you doing with your time anyhow? You’re not preaching, you’re not doing visitation, you’re apparently not in your office. What do you do?”

    “Well, it’s not true that I don’t do visitation. What I have been doing is taking gifted church members with me and then letting them do visitation on their own. I’m often not in the office because I’m doing some of those mission projects that I want the members to get involved in.”

    “But I thought you couldn’t get the church involved in those missions.”

    “No, I couldn’t get the mission committee involved. I have church members out serving in the community every day, and I work with them.”

    “So you do it without the approval of the mission committee.”

    “I don’t think I need the committee to approve my going to a soup kitchen with a few members and serving people.”

    “But the mission committee probably thinks you need their approval.”

    “Did they complain?”

    “No.”

    “They wouldn’t.”

    “Yes,” said Jim after a moment. “That wouldn’t fit with the pattern.”

    “Why haven’t I heard from any of these other members, you know, the ones who are out doing service projects with you?”

    “I think it might be because they’re busy doing things. And they’re not really all that knowledgeable about church politics. Some of them may not even know one can complain to the district superintendent.”

    “Well, it doesn’t matter a great deal. The people who have the power are the ones who are complaining and they’re demanding that you sign this covenant they’ve proposed or they’re going to ask that you not be reappointed.”

    “I see.”

    “I think it’s your best option. We need you where you are. That church needs you. The only way you can continue in the ministry God has called you to is to accept these conditions.”

    “So in order to be permitted to do ministry I have to agree not to do it?”

    “I wouldn’t put it like that. I’d suggest that you take a little more time. Work more slowly and carefully.”

    “Pastors have been doing that for years. It hasn’t worked.”

    “It’s the only option.”

    “But that’s not true, is it?”

    “What do you mean?”

    “The bishop can appoint me where he wants me. He can go against the church’s recommendation.”

    “Is that what you’re expecting?”

    “I’m not really expecting anything. I’m just pointing out that the SPR committee of that one church doesn’t have the final say.”

    “I’ll tell you not to expect it. Your choice is clear. Sign the covenant, or plan to be reappointed elsewhere, probably to a smaller church.”

    He pushed the document across the desk toward her …

  • The God-Talk Club: Naturalism and Miracles

    Prevailing model of the origin and expansion o...
    Is it just an appearance of age?Image via Wikipedia

    “Hey guys, I have this quote from Albert Mohler about evolution,” said Bob.

    “So let’s hear it,” said Mac.

    Bob quoted:

    As I have stated repeatedly, I accept without hesitation the fact that the world indeed looks old. Armed with naturalistic assumptions, I would almost assuredly come to the same conclusions as BioLogos and the evolutionary establishment, or I would at least find evolutionary arguments credible. But the most basic issue is, and has always been, that of worldview and basic presuppositions. The entire intellectual enterprise of evolution is based on naturalistic assumptions, and I do not share those presuppositions. Indeed, the entire enterprise of Christianity is based on supernaturalistic, rather than merely naturalistic, assumptions. There is absolutely no reason that a Christian theologian should accept the uniformitarian assumptions of evolution. In fact, given a plain reading of Scripture, there is every reason that Christians should reject a uniformitarian presupposition. The Bible itself offers a very different understanding of natural phenomena, with explanations that should be compelling to believers. In sum, there is every reason for Christians to view the appearance of the cosmos as graphic evidence of the ravages of sin and the catastrophic nature of God’s judgment upon sin. (Quote of the Day on Jesus Needs New PR – while this story is fiction, the quote is real, as is, of course, Dr. Albert Mohler!)

    “It seems pretty unremarkable to me,” said Jerry.

    “It sounds to me like he’s saying God lied and we can’t really do science,” said Mark.

    “How is that?” asked Jerry.

    “If God makes the universe appear old, but it isn’t, what’s the purpose? It seems deceptive.”

    “Maybe he’s testing our faith,” said Justine.

    “Testing your faith?” asked Bob, puzzled.

    “Yes. He’s trying to see if we’ll believe him or not.”

    “But Justine,” said Mark, “it seems that he’s asking us whether we believe him or our senses.”

    “I’d say it’s more like a test as to whether you believe an ancient book written by primitive people, or the best evidence of your own senses,” put in Mac.

    “It seems to me,” said Jerry slowly, “that we’re making an assumption here. Why would God need to make the physical universe at any particular time in its history? Why is the default position that it should look its actual age?”

    “Why not make the universe look just the age it is?” asked Mark.

    This is a work of fiction. All persons and events, with the exception of the reference to and quote from Dr. Albert Mohler, are products of my imagination.

    The story is part of the God-Talk Club Series.

    Copyright © 2011, Henry E. Neufeld

    “Well, lets say God created more people than just humans here on earth. Let’s say he also creates an intelligent race on a planet that orbits a sun a couple of billion light years from here. If he made the universe look like it was just 6,000 years old, the distance would have to be very small. So I would think the universe needs to have the appearance of age in order to accommodate the space for all of God’s creation.”

    “But how would that work with oil and coal? Those imply that there was death, whereas in your scenario, God wouldn’t have created life that early. Yet he plants the remains of life under the soil so we’ll see evidence that there was life way back then.”

    “Well, he had to provide oil somehow,” said Jerry. “Why do you choose one method over another?”

    “I don’t suppose we could be wrong about what formed the oil, could we?” said Justine, cutting Jerry off.

    “I was about to say,” Jerry continued, “that an alternative explanation there was that geological formations were created by the flood, so, as Justine says, oil might have been produced in a different way than modern scientists believe.”

    Bob was shaking his head. “This is just amazing. All of science is swept aside because your book must be true! Unbelievable!”

    “I bet Mandy doesn’t have any problems with it at all. Do you, Mandy?” said Mac.

    “No, I don’t. I have no problem with God using evolution to create and diversity life.”

    “Well, technically, evolution isn’t the process that creates life. That’s abiogenesis,” said Mac.

    “On the contrary,” said Bob, “while the processes may be somewhat different, some of the same principles of variation plus selection may well apply. We just don’t know precisely–or even generally–how it works.”

    “Yet you believe it happened,” said Jerry, looking puzzled. “Why is that?”

    “It seems pretty clear to me,” said Bob. “There’s life. It must have gotten here somehow. We have a number of excellent leads, so it’s not unreasonable to suppose one or another will work out.”

    “That seems to me to be a rather incredible statement of faith.”

    “I suppose you drive a car,” Bob responded.

    “Yes, I do. But don’t try comparing the way a car works to theories of abiogenesis.”

    “No, that isn’t my point. Is it faith that makes you believe your car will run?”

    “No, I know how the car works, and it has worked before.”

    “Precisely! I know how science works. In one area after another ignorance has been displaced by leads and ideas, and then finally to explanations. I believe it will work this way too. You call that faith. I call it learning from experience.”

    “But you still trust science. Scientists have been wrong so many times. Why do you think you have it right now?” This came from Justine.

    “Oh, I have no doubt that,” said Bob. “I’m wrong about many things. What I do know is that science has successfully solved problems and come up with new information. And many of those ‘wrong’ answers were quite workable in their context. Newtonian physics handles quite a lot of problems even if we do know its limitations now.”

    “I want to get back to an earlier point,” said Jerry. “I still maintain that Bob’s statement is a statement of faith. He believes in science. He believes it can solve everything. I can solve many problems on my calculator, but no matter how many I solve, it doesn’t mean I can solve everything. Science can solve many puzzles, but that doesn’t mean it can solve everything.”

    “But the problems you can’t solve with your calculator are of a different nature than the ones you can,” said Bob. “I think the origin of life is a similar problem to the ones we have already solved. I see no reason why it cannot be solved as well.”

    “To me the creation of life is a very different problem from birth even of new species,” said Jerry. “But I also want to go back to an earlier point that Mark made. Mark, why would you say that Dr. Mohler’s statement makes science impossible. Certainly many people who believe as he does do carry out scientific research.”

    “One consistent thing about people is that they are inconsistent,” said Mandy.

    “Let Mark answer,” said Jerry.

    “If God lied in one area–the appearance of age–then how can we trust anything else. He could have set up the evidence to mislead us intentionally.” Mark looked thoughtful and troubled.

    “I don’t see how God is lying,” said Jerry. “We’re misinterpreting the data.”

    “But it seems to me that God is intentionally making us misinterpret the data. God could quite easily create the universe 12 or 13 million years ago and then create life now. Then it would be what it appeared to be. I just don’t like the idea that God is making it impossible for us to use our senses.”

    “But Dr. Mohler argues that some of this is the result of sin,” said Justine. “The universe is messed up because of sin. That’s why we can’t interpret it correctly.”

    “Or even more,” Bob added, “because we’re sinful we can’t interpret the data correctly.”

    “But what does sin have to do with the appearance of age?” asked Mandy.

    “The flood is certainly a result of sin according to the Bible,” said Jerry. “If it produced the appearance of age in the rocks, that appearance would be a result of sin.”

    “Well, scientifically, the idea that a worldwide flood created the oilfields and coal deposits is quite ludicrous,” said Bob.

    “You’re sure that’s not something that will be revised,” said Justine.

    “In general, revisions of scientific theories don’t involve completely invalidating well established laws,” said Bob. “They usually result in adjusting or refining. No, I don’t find it likely that science will be revised sufficiently to allow a worldwide flood to explain geological features such as oil fields.”

    There was a pause. “What I don’t understand, Mandy,” Bob continued, “is how you can stomach being associated with someone like Dr. Mohler, when you know what he’s said is nonsense.”

    “I have the same problem,” said Mark.

    “I don’t think what he said is nonsense. I disagree. I’m not embarrassed to call him a brother in Christ. That may not mean that much to you, Bob, but I think Jerry and Justine can understand what I’m saying. I don’t agree with his comment about naturalistic assumptions, because I believe in God, I think as much as he does. But I can disagree, even vehemently disagree, without despising.”

    “I guess we’ll have to discuss ‘naturalistic assumptions’ some other time,” said Jerry. “I don’t see how you get away from them.”

    “I have no problem with science sticking with naturalistic assumptions. If they didn’t, what would theologians have to do?” Mandy was grinning.

    But it was time for the group to part for the evening.

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  • The Missionary’s House

    Iced tea with lemon.
    Image via Wikipedia

    *“You know what I think is wrong here?”

    The question startled Ward. He was sitting on the porch of his house looking out at a beautiful view from the top of a hill. He and his visitor both had glasses of iced tea. They had just finished a wonderful meal. He had enjoyed showing his guest, a “retired” missionary, around his station. He didn’t see anything wrong.

    “Wrong?” he asked. “I think things are going rather well.”

    “Yes, I suppose they are, in a sense.”

    Ward had a great deal of respect for his visitor, and wasn’t going to miss out if there was another sense in which things weren’t so good. He smiled. “I’m guessing there’s another sense,” he said.

    “Yes, there is. I think, perhaps, you should try to look at this situation through Jesus’s eyes.”

    “I thought I had. I’m here far from home, serving people in need, and doing a rather good job of it. I don’t want to boast, but we’re caring for more people, seeing more of the local children in our school, and we have more people in church than we ever did under any of my predecessors at this station.”

    “Yes, I saw all that. I read the reports. The mission board likes reports. Actually I don’t have anything against reports myself. It’s just that something about this whole scene seems wrong. I think we need to look at it through Jesus’s eyes.”

    “OK, you keep saying that, and I know you wouldn’t say it idly or without having something specific in mind. But you’re going to have to say a few more words. I don’t get it.”

    “I’m thinking of John 20:21. ‘Just as the father sent me, I’m sending you.’”

    “Yes, but are you forgetting you’re talking to someone who already answered the call to mission service?” Ward couldn’t quite keep the impatience out of his voice.

    “Yes, you’re a missionary. But are you going out in the way that Jesus went out?”

    “Well, I left my home and gave up a lucrative career. I came over here and gave it all up. I think I’ve been sent.”

    “And here you are, suffering for Jesus.” The words had a sharp edge, but the tone was very, very gentle.

    “Is it that you think I’m not suffering enough? Do I need more trials and tribulations? What?” Ward again sounded a bit impatient. He felt pretty good about the things he had given up.

    “I don’t know about suffering. Willing to suffer, yes. Actual suffering? That’s up to God. But let me give you a few phrases to consider. ‘It was fitting that God … should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings’, ‘all have one Father’, ‘Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,’ ‘like his brothers and sisters in every respect.’ All of those come from Hebrews 2:10-18.”

    “I’m familiar with the passage,” said Ward.

    “But are you willing to apply it?”

    “Again, I think I’m not getting your point.”

    “We’re sitting up here on a hill, looking down on the village where the people you serve are living from a nice house. How many of them have the food you have? How many of them can enjoy a relaxing evening like this?”

    “I would guess none of them.”

    “Your children go to the American school. Your wife drives them 20 miles one way, twice a day. I don’t think I’ve seen them in contact with the local children since I’ve been here.”

    “I don’t think it’s wrong to want the best education for my children.”

    “No, it’s not wrong. I’m not judging you for any particular thing here. I’m asking you to consider a pattern. How close are you to being ‘just like the brothers and sisters’ you’ve come here to serve?”

    “I think I’m pretty close. I don’t think protecting my children from local diseases and bad influences is a bad thing.”

    “I suppose there are no bad influences or diseases at the American school in the city. But I’m not certain what your choice should be in each case. It’s the pattern. For another example, I’ve never seen you eat with any of the local people.”

    “I do, though not often. My wife would prefer not to.”

    “I wonder why that is. But it’s just a piece of the pattern. I wonder what it is that the people here see in your mission. Is it the spirit of Jesus? Is it the call to service? Or is it the benefits of being connected with the American missionary with the nice house?”

    “You surely don’t think I should fail to provide what I can manage to provide for the people?”

    “I think you’re still missing my point. It’s the pattern. I can’t say precisely what you should or shouldn’t do. What I do see is a pattern that separates you from the people you serve. Rather than helping them also become servants of Jesus, they’re becoming your servants, earning the benefits you can provide.”

    “That’s harsh!”

    “Ward, I’m talking to you this way because I respect you. Don’t worry, I’m not going to report to the mission board that you’re a failure or that you aren’t doing your job. This isn’t about mission boards. It’s between you and me. You’re sent as Jesus was sent. Do you think you have done everything to go out into the field in the way that Jesus went out?”

    Ward looked down from the hill toward the village that had gathered around his clinic. Was it possible that he was making disciples for himself, and serving himself, in spite of what he had given up?

    “I appreciate your willingness to be honest,” said Ward, and as he said it, he found it was true. “I’ll think and pray about what you’ve said. It bothers me. It seems extreme. But in another sense it rings true.”

    “Thinking and praying is all I can ask.”

    *This is a work of fiction. All persons, places, and events are products of my imagination. Copyright © 2010, Henry E. Neufeld

     

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  • The God-Talk Club Defines Cult – I

    Ellen brought everyone their food and then sat down herself and joined the group.  They were no longer surprised, as this had become a habit with the group, and they all knew Ellen had an arrangement with the owner.

    “So why don’t you just let one of the other waitresses serve us?” asked Bob.

    “Because I like to do it.  It just feels right.”

    “I’m still surprised that you just work as a waitress.  You’re so smart; you could do anything you want,” said Bob.

    “But what I want to do is this.  Why is that so hard for you to understand?”

    “Bob’s a bit of an elitist,” put in Mac. “According to him, if you’re smart enough to be a scientist, then you should.”

    “I’m not an elitist; I just like people to live up to their potential.”  It was rare for Bob to be offended, but he looked offended now.

    “But doesn’t it matter what they want to do?” asked Mandy.

    “I just can’t see how someone would want to be a waitress if she had other options,” Bob replied, but he was looking at Ellen.

    “I think what I want to do is the second most important thing, right after what God wants me to do,” said Ellen.

    Jerry said “Amen.”  Bob favored Ellen with a disgusted look.  Mac said, “Well, I agree with the ‘want’ part, anyhow.”

    “Ellen,” said Justine, “Why don’t you tell us what you like about being a waitress.”

    “I like making people happy.  I like meeting people and getting a chance to chat with them.  Sometimes it’s silly, sometimes it’s annoying, but I’m learning alot while I work here.  It also gives me a chance to be a witness.”

    “You mean your boss is OK with you proselytizing?” asked Bob.

    “No, not at all.  I don’t want to proselytize.  But my regular customers eventually find out who I am.  Tell me, Jerry.  Haven’t your conversations with me changed your view of Mormons?”

    “Well, I still think you’re wrong.”  He grinned.  “But yes, I think I do understand better how you can believe what you do.”

    “See?” said Ellen.  “I’m doing some good here.  How many other jobs would have given me a chance to talk to Jerry.  And I’ve learned many things from him as well.  And from all of you.”

    There was a pause.

    “But that’s just a benefit.  I enjoy serving people.  That’s why I bring the food here even when I’m not on the clock.”  She paused and grinned mischievously at Bob.  “Besides, it annoys you, and I admit I enjoy annoying you.”

    There was a moment while everyone was stunned.  Ellen had never needled anyone; it just seemed contrary to her personality.  They wondered what would happen.  Bob was already offended by Mac’s charge of elitism.  Would this make him really angry?

    But Ellen had read him right.  Bob laughed.  “OK, you win this round,” he said.  “But I’ll be back for more.”

    “But I have a question for all you good Christians,” he continued, “And it has to do with Ellen and her faith.”

    “Shoot!” said Mandy.

    “Ellen is LDS.  I read up on their beliefs on the internet the other day.  I found any number of Christian sites that attack their beliefs and call them a cult.  What makes a group a ‘cult’?”

    [For official LDS information, see mormon.org.  For an example of an orthodox Christian apologetics ministry, see Christian Research Institute.]

    “Well,” said Jerry, “I call any organization that claims to be Christian but doesn’t uphold orthodox Christian doctrines, such as the Trinity, the authority of the Bible, the incarnation, they atonement, and salvation by faith a cult.  Often they’re smaller organizations and demand extreme personal loyalty.”

    “There are more than 13 million Mormons.  That’s not small as denominations go.”

    “Doesn’t that offend you?” asked Bob.  “He’s just called you a cult, and he certainly doesn’t think that’s a good thing.”

    “Well,” Ellen replied, “You think my beliefs are stupid, don’t you?”

    “Well … ”

    “Be honest!  I know you think all of us believers are a few sandwiches short of a picnic.”

    “OK, I’ll be honest.  I can’t imagine how you can both be as intelligent as you all appear to be and still believe such ridiculous things.”

    “So why should I be offended? I believe that through Joseph Smith and our movement God chose to restore the true gospel that had been lost by the churches of ‘orthodox’ Christianity.”

    “But you don’t accept the doctrine of the Trinity, and you accept scripture that is not part of the Bible,” Jerry exclaimed.

    “But where in the Bible is the Trinity defined?  We accept that there are three distinct beings, united in purpose.  I think we’re more biblical than you are.  Your doctrines come from early church councils, not the Bible.”

    “But the Trinity is a Biblical doctrine.  All the elements of the doctrine are there in scripture.  All the councils did was pull the definition together into one place.”

    “And I believe the councils were wrong,” said Ellen.

    “And you say you believe this on the basis of the Bible, but in reality you base your belief on the Book of Mormon.”

    “I believe God revealed himself through the Book of Mormon, yes.  But that doesn’t mean I don’t believe the Bible.  I believe orthodox Christianity did not preserve the Bible as they should.  And you have added much to the Bible through various writers and your confession of faith.”

    “No, confessions of faith and other writers don’t supercede the Bible.  You accept the Book of Mormon as superceding the teaching of the Bible.”

    “I could debate that, but I’d rather ask you whether your church requires people to accept the Westminster Confession.  Do you?”

    “Well, yes, we do.”

    “Why don’t you just ask them to accept what the Bible teaches? Why do you have to define it more?”

    “Well, because many people have misinterpreted the Bible.”

    “I agree.  We just disagree as to who has it right and who has it wrong.”

    “Which always makes it interesting for an atheist such as myself,” said Bob.  “I not only have the question of whether there’s a god or not, I have a variety of different Christians, all of them claiming I should believe their particular detailed doctrines.”

    “I’d suggest that the question of God’s existence might be primary, and that most of the rest of these discussions are rather trivial,” said Mandy.

    “Trivial?” exclaimed Jerry.

    Bob laughed.  “You see, you guys can’t even agree on what’s important.”

    “I’d suggest that you get to decide what’s important,” said Mandy.  “If you look at this as a decision between various groups of people and whether they understand God correctly or not, you’ll always find things confusing.  A spiritual journey is personal in so many ways.  Who you make the journey with is just one aspect.  You don’t even have to agree on everything in order to enjoy the journey together.”

    [To be continued …]

  • Christian Carnival CCCXXXII

    Welcome to the June 16, 2010 of the Christian Carnival, #322. Today I’m just presenting the posts in order with a little bit of commentary. I enjoyed a number of these posts. I hope you do as well.

    Starting us out with a controversial topic, we have Rodney Olsen who presents some thoughts on how important it is to communicate on controversial issues, such as abortion, and  presents Rethinking Abortion, including an interview (audio) with a Christian politician in Western Australia who is trying to reduce the number of abortions in his state.  I admit I enjoy a vigorous and yet respectful debate on such a topic, though the opportunity to have one is quite rare.

    Anyone else have trouble saving?  Yes, it’s hard to stretch that paycheck!  FMF presents The Seven Pillars of Financial Success, Pillar 4: Saving for the Future, telling us that saving a portion of what you make is one of the key biblical financial pillars.  I always love posts that start from Proverbs!

    John Fraiser chooses to take on C. S. Lewis and his Lord? Lunatic? Demon?? or? trilemma.  He finds some value in the argument but doesn’t think it will stand up as an all encompassing argument.  Be sure to read down into the comments for some further clarity.

    Warren Nicholson Y. Fernando finds a prayer in a Beatles song, and presents his faith interpreted through the song with  In My Hour In Need: Let It Be By The Beatles posted at 24k Forever!!!!.

    If you’re like me and don’t think that much of folks preaching out on street corners or in the park, then you need to read Street Preaching and “Church in the Park” posted at who am i? by Barry Wallace.

    Michael Fierro presented Luke 7, the most wondrous chapter in the Bible posted at New Testament in Review, but it’s outside the date range for the carnival, so I’m linking to Cliffhanger:  What does Paul say (Acts 22-24), which does fall in the right date range.  (Alright already!  He got two links.  He’s blogging through the New Testament–can’t resist that.  Sue me!)

    I find that time in the car often provides the best opportunities to have a conversation with my wife, and Ridge Burns found the same thing to be true in his post Conversation.

    Andrew says he used to wonder why Christians were so anxious to share.  He explains it in Why Christians are eager to share Christ. Are you eager?  If not, this post will tell you why you should be!

    The story of Esau selling his birthright is pretty well known, but what was the big issue with that action.  Russ White presents Esau’s Birthright.  He says,  “The selling of Esau’s birthright seems straightforward–but what we to make of it? Is it more than just one story among many along the road to the creation of Israel?”

    Clay at Christian Colleges presents a list of Top 10 Biblical Learning Blogs.  He says, “God is everywhere. So, it should come as no surprise to find Him on the internet also. Hey, He’s probably even got his own Twitter account. The Big Man Upstairs has gone high tech, and here are the Top Ten Biblical Learning Blogs to help you ‘Follow’ Him.”  I’m pretty biased about the list since my Participatory Bible Study blog is in first position!

    Brian Marchionni presents 5 Must Read Bible Scholars (for the non-academic) posted at Boston Bible Geeks, saying, “If people in your church are wanting to learn from top-notch Bible scholars without forking over the big bucks to go to seminary, these 5 scholars would be a great place to start (with reading suggestions).”  That’s what he said.  What I say is get on over there and argue about who should or shouldn’t be on the list!  That’s where the real fun is.

    michelle is blown away by the greatness of God, so she tells us about Answered Prayers. I think it’s hard to go wrong with personal testimony, so I love it!

    Weekend Fisher explains why she is not a Mormon in a post titled (unsurprisingly) Why I am not a Mormon: Introduction posted at Heart, Mind, Soul, and Strength.  Just the question I was going to ask!  She describes it this way: “A Christian takes a look at why she is not a Mormon — both for the sake of the earnest, kind Mormons she has known and for the sake of the agnostics who use the Book of Mormon as a smoke-screen.”

    Dave Taylor believes that if we don’t continue to exercise faith, it atrophies until it degenerates into just an intellectual concept, something more likely to lead to strife, friction, and pointless controversies.  He explains why in his post Going, going …gone? saying, Disciple’s Journal. I’ve always wondered why this should be controversial. Of course we don’t always like it–exercise is hard! But the Bible says it a number of times. Dave Taylor lays it out point by point.

    And since I didn’t get anything worthwhile posted on my own blogs, let me present Sometimes You Have to Act First, which I wrote for the World Prayr blog. That one goes well with the one about active discipleship that came before.

    That concludes this edition. Submit your blog article to the next edition of christian carnival ii using our carnival submission form. Past posts and future hosts can be found on our blog carnival index page.

    

  • Christian Carnival CCCXVII

    Welcome to the March 3, 2010 edition of the Christian Carnival, CCCXVII (317 for the Roman numeral challenged).  I would like to remind everyone that the Christian Carnival is weekly, and that posts must be dated within the previous week.  Where a new participant submitted an older post I have checked, and if possible I have linked to a more recent post from the same blog.  Most posts that were not included were outside the date range.

    I have also added a few editorial comments.  I hope nobody minds.

    Bible Study

    Chris Wiles wrote about Bono and the Psalms, noting that “[t]he Psalms were written as the soundtrack to the spiritual life of Israel.

    Ridge Burns presents Psalm 95.  As he read the Psalm, he says, “I felt myself being overwhelmed with the notion that I am a child of God and that the Creator of the world somehow, some way invested His life in me.”  It is truly an amazing concept, isn’t it.

    Bob MacDonald presents Psalm 27 – A Reflection at Bob’s Log with an in-depth look at patterns in the Psalm along with some details of the language.  If you haven’t discovered Bob MacDonald’s work on the Psalms you’re really missing something.

    bethyada at True Paradigm presents Scope and intent in biblical interpretation in which he discusses how one might understand what is said in a scripture and still be in error about where, when, or to whom it might apply.  This is a worthwhile discussion to follow and discusses a point of interpretation that I think many miss.

    Tom Gilson presents The Bible and Christian Thinking posted at Thinking Christian.  Discipleship of the mind starts with the Bible, and Tom is recommending the Bible as our guide to truth.

    Epistemology

    Steven Demmler presents Musings on “Certainty of Faith II at You Can’t Mean That!  He starts by discussing particularism and why he finds it a helpful approach in epistemology.  He concludes by asking whether a committed Christian can honestly say that if the evidence were to lead that way he would not believe in God.  The phrase “certainty of faith” is pretty important in the discussion.  Head on over and give him your ideas!

    Theology

    At Entangled States I found Saying “no” to “Good Buddy Jesus” by Nick Knisely, in which he suggests we distinguish between having a God who loves us personally and having our own personal god (see comments).

    Justin Allison presents Natural Disasters: Is the World Spinning out of Control, and concludes that it has been for years.  I’m sure many people and many times in history would agree!

    Calum Henderson presents I’m a Saint Just Like Mary posted at Calum Henderson.  He says that after Mary MacKillop was declared worthy of being called a saint, he thought it would be good to Biblically define what a saint is.  Sounds like a good plan!  Go check out what he learned.

    NCSue presents What kind of “justice” is that? posted at IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE AND HAVE OUR BEING.  She finds that the word justice might not mean the same thing in God’s kingdom as it does in our world.  Who do you think ought to change?

    Brian Marchionni presents To Err Is Human? or Is It? posted at Boston Bible Geeks.  Is it our sin that makes us eternally distinct from God, or is it something else?

    Jeremy Pierce takes a look a look at the dualist theory of personal identity, i.e. what makes us what we are fundamentally over time and across various physical changes is sameness of soul in The Dualist View of Personal Identity posted at Parableman.  Jeremy writes some extremely challenging posts, and this is one of a series of them on theories of knowledge and reality.

    Rey Reynoso presents Bird’s Eye View Of Promises posted at The Bible Archive with an overview of the connection between the divine covenants, looking at covenant theology and dispensational views.  Extensively illustrated and very interesting!

    Christian Living

    Lacie presents An Environmentalist Christian is Not an Oxymoron posted at The EcoChic Apprentice, saying, “I just wrote a post about being both a person that’s interested in green living and being a Christian and why God’s people should consider being more interested in green living.”  She suggests that while there are environmentalists who worship there earth, there are also “green” Christians who believe they are taking good care of God’s world.

    Joe Plemon presents When Does Saving Turn To Hoarding? posted at Personal Finance By The Book.  He takes a look at the difference between saving and hoarding and how this might apply in both a spiritual and  temporal matters.

    Violet N. presents a devotional that includes seven practical ways you can pass on the Gospel titled Pass it on posted at Other Food: daily devo’s. Short, practical, and to the point!

    Barry Wallace presents The Promise No One Claims (Discipleship, Part 3) posted at who am i?.  He says, ““…everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” (2 Tim 3:12)”  This is another good post both on interpretation and application.  Are you claiming promises that don’t apply to you or perhaps aren’t even promises? It’s a really good idea to know just what you’re claiming.  But more importantly is there a promise you should claim but don’t want to?

    Lori Vaughn presents Lent and Dr. Pepper posted at Two Southern Girls.  She’s giving up something for Lent.  What about you?

    Dana presents The Pearls, abuse and a false gospel posted at Roscommon Acres.  Michael and Debi Pearl give some very controversial advice about child rearing.  Warning:  Part of this story may be hard to read.

    Siobhan McGirr presents Morning Mommy posted at A Christian Mommy.  Every time I read something about the Proverbs 31 woman I’m reminded of my mother turning this on me at my wedding.  “You have to deserve a Proverbs 31 woman,” she said.  In this post the topic is getting up before sunrise.

    Mission

    Michelle presents Mission To Haiti/Disaster Relief/Day Five posted at Thoughts and Confessions of a Girl Who Loves Jesus… Keep following Michelle’s story.

    That concludes this edition. Submit your blog article to the next edition of christian carnival ii using our carnival submission form. Past posts and future hosts can be found on our blog carnival index page.

    

  • Christian Carnival CCCII Posted

    … at Crossroads.

  • Christian Carnival Broken Things Edition

    … is posted. I plead server problems and issues with the Moderate Christian Blogroll that prevented me from posting a link until now!

  • The God-Talk Club is Born

    Note: This is the start of a new series, without the end of any others. I will expand on this in the series page. Briefly, I want to practice writing dialog, try various ways of presenting it, and also try presenting different views on various theological topics in a sympathetic way. Basically I’m practicing here, so read at your own risk. Of course, that’s not much different from anything else on this blog!

    Also, all characters, places, events, and churches in this story are fictional. It is a work of fiction.

    * * * * *

    Mark wasn’t too sure why he pulled into the roadside cafe. He rarely ate out. As a seminary student on a partial scholarship but without church support he had to be careful with his money. But tonight he needed to get working on a three page paper, and he couldn’t think how he was going to do it.

    It was Saturday night, the paper was due Monday morning. He felt silly as he thought about that. He was a veteran of countless all nighters in which he had produced 10, 15, or 20 pages in a night with no problem, complete with footnotes, formatted according to the professor’s requirements. Yet he had this feeling of dread.

    “You will write three pages on what it means to you personally to be a Christian. No references, no quotations, not even Bible verses. Just three pages from you.”

    There was a short time of silence in the class. For many of them, half or more of a paper could be made up of summing up other people’s views and providing references for them.

    “But Dr. Youngman,” said one, “References to the great teachers of the past are important! I can’t imagine talking about Christianity without referencing some of the great thinkers in Christian history.”

    “Well, you’re going to learn to imagine it. Just three pages.”

    “Exactly?” asked another student.

    “Make it between 2.9 and 3.1 pages. Edit it until you get it to the right length.”

    “What if I’m not a Christian,” asked another student.

    “Good question,” said the professor. “One assumes that most students at a seminary are Christians, but one may be wrong. If you are not a Christian, then write about what it means to you to say someone else is a Christian.”

    “And if we’re not sure, not committed?”

    “Write about why you’re not sure then, 3 pages, all your words.”

    “I don’t think I can express myself in three pages. You’ve given us a broad subject.”

    “Narrow it down.”

    “But how? What is the most important thing for me to talk about?”

    “That’s what you should be asking yourself.”

    “What if I can’t think of three full pages?”

    “Consider the impact of a zero for this assignment on your grade, and feel the motivation flowing over you.”

    (more…)

  • The “Evil” Chronicles of Narnia

    I can’t help calling attention to this page from the Balaam’s Ass web site for the rampant paranoia, lack of humor, and failure to comprehend represented throughout.

    The following opening says it all:

    John F. Kennedy, C.S. Lewis, and Aldous Huxley all died on the same day.

    They all went to the same place.
    Kennedy went to hell because he trusted in the Roman Whore.
    Huxley went to hell because he trusted in himself alone and his hybrid Eastern mystic notions.
    And, Lewis went to hell because he invented a new god, and he ended his life a Taoist.
    We will prove it here.

    Oh well, not quite all:

    Though a highly acclaimed and widely published “Christian” author, when judged by his own words with the King James Bible it becomes clear that he was indeed a fool in the most extreme sense of the word, yet a very subtle one that was and is extremely useful to his father the devil.

    As soon as someone says they are going to judge something by the King James Bible, I know they are not to be taken seriously. The level of vitriol in this material on Lewis is interesting, though amongst KJV-Only advocates, it’s not too surprising. Once one sets out to pursue ignorance, where does one stop?