The God Talk Club Defines Cult – II

[Continued from The God Talk Club Defines Cult – I]

“I think if I was setting out on a journey of any kind I’d want to know precisely where I’m going,” said Bob.

“I agree!” said Jerry.  “That’s why orthodoxy is so important.”

“But you really can’t agree on what’s ‘orthodox’, can you?”

“I think that the vast majority of Christians for the last 2,000 years have been able to define what orthodoxy is.  The Bible is God’s Word, the trinity, the virgin birth, the resurrection, salvation by faith, and so forth.”

“But, …” Mandy said and then paused.  Then she resumed.  “I’m just wondering if you regard me as an ‘orthodox’ Christian by your definition.”

“Well, so far as I know, you are.  I have some problems with the way you understand righteousness by faith, and I think your view of scripture is a bit weak, but it generally falls within the boundaries of orthodoxy.”

“But you just mentioned the virgin birth.  I consider the virgin birth metaphorical rather than a genuine, physical miracle.  I suspect it was an explanation for the questions about Jesus’ ancestry while at the same time explaining his evident divinity.”

Jerry had his mouth open, but Bob cut in, “Evident divinity?”

“Yes,” said Mandy.  “I think the best explanation for the way people responded to Jesus was that he exhibited that divine authority to those who were perceptive, even when he might not have looked like much to physical sight.”

“Oh,” said Bob.

“But aren’t you calling the gospel writers liars?” asked Jerry.

“I don’t think so.  I think they used the best explanations they had.  Mark and John were happy with the baptism, but others wanted more.  But that’s not really why I brought the topic up.  I don’t accept the virgin birth as a physical, historical realty.  Am I now a cultist?”

Jerry was stunned for a minute.  First, he wanted to convince Bob that there was one way of salvation, and one Christianity which he needed to accept or reject.  Now one of the Christians in the group was denying what he felt was essential.  Was it a moment to de-emphasize the differences, or did he need to stand up and be counted?  He really wished Mandy had not brought the topic up.

Of course, the decision wasn’t really all that difficult.  Jerry couldn’t really pretend very well in any case, and he didn’t think it would be right.  “On that point you’re not orthodox,” he said slowly.  “And I do consider it an essential point.  I’m not trying to judge your salvation, but you’re denying what I consider an essential pillar of Christianity, and in effect you’re calling God a liar.”

“Calling God a liar?” asked Bob and Mac together.

“Yes,” said Mandy before Jerry could reply.  “With Jerry’s view of Biblical inspiration he could hardly say otherwise.  I’ve said that certain Bible writers claimed something happened, but it didn’t.  I see the Bible as people’s experience with God.  Jerry sees it as God’s infallible, inerrant Word.”

“But doesn’t it make you angry that he calls you unorthodox?  Isn’t that a bad thing amongst Christians?” asked Bob.

“I’m sure some people get angry about such things, but I know what Jerry believes, and I know I disagree, so I would be more disturbed if he pretended he believed something he didn’t.  But Jerry,” she said, turning back to him, “I’m wondering whether you really regard me as a sister in Christ or not.  Am I a cultist?”

“As far as I know,” Jerry responded slowly again, “you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior and depend on him for your salvation.  Your beliefs, especially your comments on the virgin birth and by implication about scripture, are wrong and extremely dangerous.  As to whether you’re a cultist or not, I can only hope that your beliefs are not the norm in your church.  I know you claim to accept the creed–‘born of the virgin Mary’–and I hope your church really does and thus I can call it orthodox.”

“So it’s possible that any Christian denomination might not be ‘orthodox’ then, and not just the Latter Day Saints,” said Mandy.

“I think Christianity is defined by the historical doctrines that have been held universally by the church.”  Jerry’s voice was now very firm.

“So what about Justine’s church?” asked Mandy.  “I know you and she disagree on a number of doctrinal points.  They do all that tongue-speaking stuff, which you don’t.  You don’t think women should be pastors and she is.”

“I’m quite certain that Justine is completely orthodox.  We can debate more minor issues.  You believe in the virgin birth, don’t you?” Jerry addressed the last to Justine.

“Yes I do.”  Justine had been quiet.  It had been a revelation to her that Mandy, who often defended her on other issues, quite casually denied what to her was unquestioned Christian doctrine.

Mac wasn’t done yet.  “In that case you probably wouldn’t have trouble with Seventh-day Adventists either, would you?”

“Well, I have some of the same problems with Adventists that I have with Mandy regarding salvation by faith.  They seem to be depending on their works.  They also seem to think they have an exclusive inside track.  So I have my doubts about them, but regarding the major doctrines in the Christian creeds, I think they’re orthodox.”

“But you think some of their doctrines are dangerous as well,” said Bob.

“Yes.”

“This still just illustrates my point.  If I wanted to be a Christian, I’d have to figure out which one of your many groups, if any, has it right, and join that one.  I think that’s terribly confusing.  You don’t even agree on how one determines just what is right.  Mandy thinks it’s largely individual.  Ellen has modern, or sort of modern revelation.  You and Justine thinks it all comes from the Bible.  Oh, I forgot.  Justine also thinks there can be modern prophets who might give a message directly from God right in her church.”

“It would have to agree with the Bible,” said Justine.

Jerry nodded.

“Well, all this leaves me thinking ‘Christianities’ not ‘Christianity’.”  I think you all ought to get your act together before you start converting other people!”

“Do all atheists agree?” asked Jerry.

“Point,” said Bob.  “But then I’m not trying to convert you to my religion.”

“Really!” exclaimed Jerry, and everyone laughed.

With that the group started break up.